Ultimatum
Ultimatum

A little context for those who haven’t read the extra story in the back of Weregeek: Volume 2: Russell, Wayne and Dustin have all been friends since high school, when they used to game together in Doug’s basement. So when Russell says that Wayne and Dustin have been friends for longer that he’s known Dustin, that really means something!

News: Posted May 18th, 2017 by Alina

^ 68 Comments to “Ultimatum”

  1. Chareon Says:

    Were I Dustin I’d talk with Wayne. I’d even apologize for how I reacted with the game. However if Wayne didn’t immediately and wholeheartedly apologize back I’d be looking for a new roommate as good riddance.

    Posted May 18th, 2017 at 2:26 am
  2. Syncline Says:

    Ah friendship. Somehow it is easier to throw away a lifelong friend than to apologize for a series of bonehead DM choices (or to move on and ignore the same?)

    Posted May 18th, 2017 at 2:27 am
  3. Xadahgla Says:

    I am on Dustins side with this one. I mean he just played and Wayne screwed up so he should apologize.

    Posted May 18th, 2017 at 2:36 am
  4. “If he still insinsts that i apologize…. then i will move out”

    Good god Wayne. You really are unable to see your own faults.

    Posted May 18th, 2017 at 2:41 am
  5. Regarding everyone who says that Dustin should just forgive Wayne, even if Wayne doesn’t acknowledge his mistake.

    I call bullshit.

    I’ve been in friendships where i was always the one forgiving the other person, ignoring what they did wrong and apologizing if i had made a mistake.

    And you know what? I’m glad these friendships are finally over. Always being the “bigger man” isn’t something healthy. It doesn’t strengthen a relationship.
    It just damn well makes sure, that the other Party never has to apologize for anything, because in the end, you will give in anyway.
    So why should they even bother?

    And Wayne just proves exactly this. “He doesn’t talk to me unless i apologize. Well i gotta move out then.”

    He LITERALLY choses moving out over apologizing.

    Posted May 18th, 2017 at 2:50 am
  6. Danthulhu Says:

    …welcome to consequences ladies and gentlemen.
    If you don’t talk to a house mate, for weeks, and insist that an apology is required for ANY talk. They will move out.
    I’m honestly shocked how many people are taking a side rather than feeling sad because two people have sacrificed their friendship over matters of pride.

    Posted May 18th, 2017 at 4:13 am
  7. maarvarq Says:

    Let him move out and good riddance to an expired friendship.

    Posted May 18th, 2017 at 4:33 am
  8. Conster Says:

    Good riddance.

    Posted May 18th, 2017 at 4:59 am
  9. Antani Says:

    “He LITERALLY choses moving out over apologizing.”

    Yeah this part is disturbing. It’s a glaring sign of a toxic relationship. I wouldn’t want someone unable to apologize in my life no matter what.

    Posted May 18th, 2017 at 5:14 am
  10. queenie lama Says:

    Wanye needs to cut the middle man and just make a decision. No one wants to deal with an “messenger”, and he should just move out. Making an ultimatum is silly. Game or not, I have seen friendships end over smaller quarrels.

    Posted May 18th, 2017 at 5:51 am
  11. Dean Says:

    Wow. Way to bring the emotional blackmail, Wayne. Classy.

    Posted May 18th, 2017 at 6:25 am
  12. happymug Says:

    Well… Wayne is such a bad sport, that Dustin is way better on without him.
    People who prefere winning over friendship should move out, at least. By, and never see you again Wayne. :’D

    Posted May 18th, 2017 at 6:45 am
  13. BecyBoo Says:

    I would be more inclined to take Dustin’s side IF Wayne hadn’t said he wanted to talk (it was said through someone else which isn’t the best but what are you gonna do?) If Dustin sat down and talked with Wayne he probably would get an apology, but I don’t think it would be the one he wants. Wayne could very well be willing to admit he made some bad calls in the process of trying to be “fair” to everyone and he probably thought the dice would work in Dustin’s favor, however the feeling I get from Dustin is that he doesn’t want to hear that, he wants Wayne to come to him begging for forgiveness and taking sole blame for everything that happened even what he had no control over, like the dice, and that is kind of unreasonable in my eyes

    Posted May 18th, 2017 at 6:52 am
  14. Elakim Says:

    My 5 cents: The end result of the talk might be that the other party apologizes; or it might be that the aggrieved party, after hearing the other party’s point of view, decides an apology is not needed; or that both parties agree that they’ve screwed up a bit and both apologize; or it might be that both parties hold their ground and end up going their different ways, ending their friendship. But requiring the other to apologize before agreeing to talk together about what happened – it’s the same as saying, I’m not actually interested in your point of view or hearing your opinion about what happened. Which kinda makes the talk irrelevant.

    Posted May 18th, 2017 at 7:11 am
  15. Gibil Says:

    Morning Everyone,

    I have been on both the receiving end of this and the giving end of this. I am a fairly frequent follower of weregeek and I have to say that I don’t remember many panels where wayne really went out of his way to try and clear the air regarding what happened.

    That doesn’t excuse both of them the fact that they are unable to or unwilling to talk to each other about how happened; and while I look forward to the concept of the characters growing here……

    I also appreciate that the artist has always dealt with the characters in a realistic light. I look forward to see what happens.

    Posted May 18th, 2017 at 7:47 am
  16. Elaby Says:

    So… Wayne is using his threat to move out as leverage to get out of apologizing. That kind of emotional manipulation is REALLY not okay. And purely from a practical standpoint, his moving out means Dustin and his other roommate are left in the lurch to pay the extra rent. All to avoid apologizing?

    Even if Wayne doesn’t think he made a bad call (which he did, in my opinion), apologizing for hurting Dustin isn’t too much to ask.

    Thanks, Alena, for making a comic so good and so provocative that so many of us want to discuss it 🙂 (Also YAY for queer representation in the previous comics! So happy! <3)

    Posted May 18th, 2017 at 8:12 am
  17. 307020 Says:

    Seconding Shinjischneider.

    Sure, Dustin’s being an ass with his ultimatum. (Any “I won’t talk to [Person] until X” statement is pretty well guaranteed stupid.) They should talk. It would be good.

    But this “I will move out rather than apologize” bullshit? That’s taking it to the next level, in an incredibly idiotic way. Even if Wayne weren’t the one at fault regarding the game situation, swallowing some pride and saying sorry in order to re-establish friendship and communication… well, it’s pretty much what the comic seems to be expecting of Dustin. Taking a hit, accepting some degree of fault that isn’t his for a bad situation, in order to put the other person and your relationship first.

    Even *if* Wayne had been a good GM, that wouldn’t be unreasonable. Dustin’s refusal to back down is why we’re expected to view him as behaving badly here, and the same should absolutely be applied to Wayne. If they were keeping up the stalemate, then yeah. Both morons. Russell’s the most sympathetic party here by far.

    But threatening to move out? That’s more than “temporary stay of friendship”. That’s threatening a permanent one– leveraging the entire existence of their relationship as a tool to get Dustin to drop his grievance and accept the role of being wrong. And maybe he means it; maybe he doesn’t expect Dustin to cooperate. That’s not much better. That just means their status as roommates and friends is worth less to him than his own rightness and superiority here.

    I get that the comic’s trying to pin blame on Dustin. He’s being blatantly depicted as immature and childish in his refusal, and I have no doubt at all that his hesitation to talk will be cast as the relationship-wrecker. “All he has to do is act like a friend towards Wayne, instead of letting that Game Drama get in the way! Would he really rather let his friend move out and stop being a part of his life? How selfish! See, overinvestment in games wrecks relationships!”

    But Wayne is the one creating this situation. Moving out wouldn’t even be a consideration if he hadn’t made it one, deliberately. And if Dustin not talking to him is really such an awful hardship that he feels he has to? He can fix it with two words.

    The game situation is shitty. Wayne was a bad DM, and I’d be pissed too. But even if that were the other way around, stepping things up this way is much, much worse than any harm Dustin’s grudge is doing. And the fact that Wayne’s willing to decide this– and more, do so in a way he knows the threat will be passed on? That makes me seriously question what his friendship means, or is worth.

    …..buuuut, our current narrative is one of Why Dustin Should Be Mature And Get Over His Game Issues. So. We’re almost certainly looking at a worse standoff (in which Dustin’s portrayed as wrong), eventual apologies (from Dustin), followed by a heartwarming admission of how both parties let things go too far and really they’re great friends and should stay that way forever.

    Yaaaay, sacrificing to maintain unhealthy relationships!

    Posted May 18th, 2017 at 8:31 am
  18. Ashley B. Says:

    I am curious: has Dustin ever run a game before? I don’t know if it’s been brought up in the comic or not.

    Posted May 18th, 2017 at 8:38 am
  19. Vol Says:

    Yeah, baring some revelation of what’s going on in Wayne’s head that makes this reasonable, he’s essentially saying “I refuse to apologize, so either he gets over it or I walk.” Context no longer matters, that’s toxic and he needs to be booted to the curb.

    At this point anyone still insisting Dustin should “be the bigger man” or “put on his big boy pants” is probably one side of a toxic relationship like this themselves.

    Posted May 18th, 2017 at 8:41 am
  20. Leoness Says:

    Oh heck no. So Wayne will move out rather than apologize? That’s how much he values his friendship? Good riddance. I have apologized before to open dialogue. Dustin isn’t being unreasonable here. Wayne is.

    Posted May 18th, 2017 at 9:07 am
  21. Joe Says:

    If I was Dustin I’d give Wayne a chance to talk, but really, Wayne not only has a friendship to save, but his own game as well. That abusive player got away with it, and now Wayne has to be consistent about it.

    Logic will not save this, since Dustin IS RIGHT. Sending someone over to pass an ultimatum might just made things worse – how come Wayne couldn’t even go and make such an announcement himself?? Still, Dustin has to be the bigger man and initiate parley with Wayne.

    Sadly, I don’t think Dustin’s mature enough to see this, and I doubt Wayne is willing to admit his mistake. It’s the sort of thing in which everybody loses – Wayne, Dustin, the Vampire players and even readers like me, that loves the vampire games in the comic the most.

    Posted May 18th, 2017 at 9:43 am
  22. clodia Says:

    I’m on Wayne’s side here.

    Dustin is putting conditions on the conversation. He’s not willing to listen unless Wayne admits that he’s wrong. That’s not conversing in good faith, especially when it’s something as murky as a situation like this one. They both need to sit down and talk and come to a mutual understanding about what happened and how they feel.

    Wayne is being perfectly reasonable in wanting to move out. If they can’t even have a conversation about it, if Dustin is making Wayne’s home feel uncomfortable, then Wayne will find a place where he doesn’t have to deal with this. He’s not even telling Dustin to leave.

    This is no longer about if Wayne made the right call, if it ever was. It’s about Dustin’s feelings being hurt and him handling it in a very immature way. I can’t blame him in the least for his hurt feelings and for his frustration with Wayne. But he’s taken it too far.

    Posted May 18th, 2017 at 10:15 am
  23. dahoughtonuk Says:

    Wayne could have dealt with this early. Moving out would still likely happen however the friendship might have been kept. A simple apology and explanation that Wayne had to be harsher on Dustin because of the living situation would have cut this off immediatley.

    Dustin is being childish, but all he wants is an apology, which he should get. The railroading destroyed his character and his trust in Wayne.

    Wayne is being more childish though. How dare Dustin be upset with me. If he doesn’t admit he’s in the wrong I’ll move out.

    Posted May 18th, 2017 at 10:24 am
  24. Drraagh Says:

    This might me reading too much into this, but here’s the thing. While we are seeing Wayne not willing to take the first step because Dustin isn’t willing to listen to anything but an apology, there might be more to the story here. Perhaps Wayne felt he was justified in what he was doing as he was trying to keep the game together and so forth. Then things started spiraling out of control and he wants to make sure that Dustin is going to listen to what he has to say rather than brush him off because ‘There’s no apology in here’.

    Posted May 18th, 2017 at 10:51 am
  25. Sooper Says:

    Here’s the thing, in this kind of situation, in Dustin’s shoes, I’d apologize for how I reacted. I also would expect them to apologize and try to make it right somehow. But honestly, if I were living in a place with someone who could not own up to his mistake, and would rather move out than have an adult conversation and admit they messed up, then, bye Felicia.

    I’m gonna apologize if I’ve done wrong, but I’m not gonna be a doormat for someone acting like a child.

    Posted May 18th, 2017 at 10:58 am
  26. Enoch Says:

    OK, Dustin is quite clearly in the wrong. Wayne made a decision during the game, and whether or not it was the right one Dustin should absolutely not be treating his “friend” like this outside of the game. It is seriously appalling that people are trying to excuse Dustin’s behavior, it is wildly immature. Wayne is NOT the one who should be apologizing.

    Posted May 18th, 2017 at 11:01 am
  27. Orange Lantern Says:

    I’m with Dustin on this one. Setting up an ultimatum is a really questionable way of showing friendship and tbh Wayne is the one who messed up. Why isn’t Wayne the one trying to make amends?

    “Good riddance, Wayne” I’d say.

    Posted May 18th, 2017 at 11:38 am
  28. Mm. So, we’re kind of missing some details here. If Dustin hast talked to Wayne AT ALL since the Vamp game, that’s a problem. Dustin needs to communicate what the problem is. And maybe it “should” be obvious, but fuck, sometimes what we think is obvious isn’t. And yeah, I’m sure Russell and others have told Wayne what Dustin is upset about but if you have a problem with someone and want it fixed, you still have a responsibility to go to them say, “This is a problem that needs to be addressed.”

    Dustin hasn’t done that and Wayne is sitting there with “Dustin is pissed at me and won’t even talk with me about why he is pissed,” than Wayne’s reaction is… well, not entirely cool but at least understandable. Still, even w/o Dustin being willing talk with him, Wayne has to know what the problem is through the gamer grapevine by now, so even if that is what is giong one, Wayne has some responsibility for not being willing to approach Dustin about it himself.

    On the other hand, if Dustin has told Wayne what the problem is and Wayne is still not willing to apologize… well, I don’t thjink Dustin’s refusal to talk with him at all is a good response, but yeah, at that point I agree with @Shinjischneider.

    Posted May 18th, 2017 at 12:12 pm
  29. Jade Gryphion Says:

    To all of you that are taking ANY side in this stupid argument, the point isn’t who should apologise; the point is, the apology should not HAVE to preempt conversation, and Wayne has been willing to talk the whole time. The only thing that he has refused to do is be bullied into apologising.

    He did not stop talking to Dustin – Dustin refuses to acknowledge that Wayne exists until he hears a specific set of words. And ALL of this over a bleeding game? A game that has time and effort put into it, yes, but a GAME.

    I will also note that previous comics have ALSO indicated that Dustin is something of a Munchkin when it comes to RPGs, and while not a bad thing, per say, my experience says that people who engineer their characters have many more conflicts with their GMs because they understand the “Rules” better than the Game Master. They often forget that they are involved in cooperative storytelling, and seek only the best possible outcome for their character, often to the detriment of the game in general.

    My point is, Dustin is more concerned with WINNING the fight than he is with his friendship with Wayne, and as a consequence, he has made life miserable for his long-time friend over a relatively petty squabble. This is not to side with Wayne for making a bad call, but the punishment is disproportionate to the crime; Dustin is behaving as a spoiled child.

    And what good would winning ultimately do for him? What is done is done; you can’t retcon the game without pissing off a number of other players.

    Like it or not, Dustin still has a lot of growing up to do, because right now, he is something less than a functional adult.

    P.S. – as an added note, Alina, this arch has been an infuriatingly brilliant arch to read, and has created an impressive number of good conversations in the forums. I hope that we’ll get to see more of Wayne’s side of the elapsed time since the game. I feel a little sad that we don’t have a greater connection to him, given his importance to this plot. It biases our sympathies very heavily to Dustin’s pathos.

    Posted May 18th, 2017 at 12:44 pm
  30. AKCodeman Says:

    Yeah honestly Dustin is kinda bullying Wayne just as much as Wayne is, though taking it to moving out is more childish. But also what else is Wayne supposed to do? Corner Dustin and force him to listen? Dustin isn’t willing to talk without an apology first, which Wayne may be willing to do, but is also hurt that Dustin, who is an old friend, isn’t even willing to just talk first. Wayne isn’t demanding an apology from Dustin, just to talk, and honestly I’d be annoyed and hurt that a friend isn’t even willing to talk to me first and is instead just demanding an apology from me. Wayne is being childish for sending a messenger and also may be jumping to moving out way to fast, but Dustin demanding an apology before even talking, which he did first, is also being childish. Relationships are about communication not making demands of each other.

    Posted May 18th, 2017 at 1:18 pm
  31. Eura Says:

    If Wayne is pulling this kind of crap on Dustin I’m starting to feel like this kind of shit has happened in the past and Dustin is sick of it. That said, both sides are wrong in dealing with a situation I feel should have left dustin pissed for about a week. We don’t know their relationship though, this could’ve been the straw that broke the camel’s back.

    Posted May 18th, 2017 at 2:03 pm
  32. Conster Says:

    It’s interesting to see how many of the people who either actively side with Wayne or say “I’m not siding with Wayne, BUT-” are skimming over the fact that Wayne did more than get Dustin’s character killed with a horrendously bad rule call – he also insulted Dustin greatly by calling the fact that he was rightly upset about it “over-reacting” and being “a bad sport”. Which, I suppose, is the exact thing some of you are doing.
    Remember, people: Dustin isn’t looking for a retcon, he’s looking for an apology. And for all this talk I see about how Dustin shouldn’t throw away his friendship over a game, I can’t help but wonder how good a friend Wayne really is if he won’t even apologize despite seeing how badly he’s hurt Dustin, instead trying to guilt-trip him through an ultimatum.
    And don’t give me this “Dustin should be the better man” or “this is part of being an adult” bullcrap, either: those lines of logic have been used to make me make up with someone before I was truly ready to plenty of times, both before and after becoming an adult, and that stuff will grate at your soul and leave scars.

    Posted May 18th, 2017 at 2:19 pm
  33. Vol Says:

    Yeah, no. To everyone saying Wayne is willing to talk but Dustin is being unreasonable, they’re both setting a condition on this conversation. Dustin that there has to be an apology, and Wayne that there has to NOT be an apology. While neither is good Dustin is clearly the wronged party here.

    Also, since it’s been a bit and people appear to be forgetting some of what occurred, let’s look back, http://www.weregeek.com/2016/11/28/, and note where Wayne called Dustin a bad sport and told him he was overreacting when he was repeatedly being screwed over by someone that was supposed to be a friend. Next time you’re screwing over a friend and they’re in a, rightfully, emotional state I want you to tell them they’re overreacting, and then refuse to apologize or talk to them until they get over it. See how that goes.

    Posted May 18th, 2017 at 2:43 pm
  34. Anonamalous Says:

    Honestly, I wouldn’t want to live with Dustin either. Dude is acting whiny and entitled because his character stumbled into a plot set in motion by two other players who decided on something they wanted to do, so the ST helped them do it. So what, Dustin’s character takes precedence over their wants?

    Posted May 18th, 2017 at 2:45 pm
  35. Vol Says:

    @Jade Gryphion So tell me how exactly that conversation is supposed to go if it doesn’t start with Wayne’s apology? Dustin apologizing for being rightfully pissed at the game? Discussion of local politics? Non-sequitur conversation about the weather? Pretty much any variation of that conversation I can think of at best starts with “I’m sorry about how things went down…” and then leads to other discussion, whether it be “but we need to move past this”, “and I hope we can resolve it”, or “but fuck your attitude”. Obviously the last isn’t a great response, but when there’s that much emotion between people I don’t see it starting with anything else.

    Also not sure where you’re getting that Wayne was willing to talk the whole time. We’re not seeing Wayne’s side here so some people seem to be viewing him as this perfectly mature party that’s completely willing to work through things if it weren’t for Dustin’s emotional outbursts, despite the fact that his reaction to the situation is to dick multiple people, I don’t recall if there are more than the three roommates, some unrelated to the issue, by walking out on his share of the rent rather than admit that he screwed up.

    Posted May 18th, 2017 at 2:53 pm
  36. Elaby Says:

    (Ack, sorry I spelled your name wrong before, Alina!)

    I heartily second Conster. And there’s some (possible?) evidence that Dustin HAS spoken to Wayne rather than just ignoring him altogether; he said Russell a few comics back “I told him” regarding an apology. At any rate, I don’t think it’s at all unreasonable to ask for an apology before any further discussion starts…and even if Wayne DOES think it’s unreasonable, I don’t see why “apology first” would be so objectionable. As far as my interpretation goes, Wayne merely saying “I’m sorry” in a sincere manner is all it would take to get Dustin to listen.

    Posted May 18th, 2017 at 3:03 pm
  37. Anny Says:

    Good riddance. See ya, Wayne. All it took was an apology, but if never admitting you’re wrong is REALLY more important than you can go find somewhere else to live.

    Posted May 18th, 2017 at 5:03 pm
  38. zmortis Says:

    Hmm. My perspective is neither one owes the other one anything. Personally I think it’s a dumb way to live life believing people owe you an apology because you feel upset. Your feelings are your own problem to solve, not someone else’s involuntary burden at your choice. Conversely, no one owes you “closure” or “forgiveness” either. To expect or demand forgiveness is as asinine as expecting an apology.

    My personal conclusion, they are both being asses, and neither one values the “friendship” enough to get over a past conflict. In this case getting distance from each other to gain perspective over time is the best scenario for both of them. If the friendship is actual, time and space to reflect will mend it. If the “friendship” was only based on mutual interests without personal connection, then it was due to break up anyway.

    Posted May 18th, 2017 at 5:15 pm
  39. AJ Says:

    ok I see a lot of people saying Dustin is being immature for demanding an apology. Let’s take a look at what has occurred in a different light. Let’s suppose Abbey had spent months creating something, working for hours each day, spending tons of her time crafting this until it was absolutely perfect. Then only a day or two after having completed it someone bumped into a shelf and it fell and shattered, complete accident, so literally no fault of their own at all. The work is still gone, and if they weren’t willing to apologize would they still be a good friend? or are they now a dick who doesn’t understand how that hurt her? Dustin is not demanding Wayne say the call was wrong, he isn’t even demanding anything specific. He has asked for an apology, a little acknowledgement and sympathy that something he had worked hard on is destroyed. Wayne would rather move out then acknowledge that fact? At this point I would rather he move out.

    Let’s also recall that somehow Dustin being pissed about a bad rule call is being a bad sport, but blatantly breaking character (at least from our viewpoint) isn’t. Our catalyst vampire has never shown to go mad and do self injury or in any way act in a manner that would suggest the choice to rip out his eyes. So we can add in the potential that Dustin just wants an apology for Wayne being a hypocrite.

    For me though, the people claiming Dustin refusing to talk without an apology is him being “unwilling to have an open discussion” I’d have to disagree, he wants proof it will be an open discussion. I’ve been in similar situations before multiple times. If you’re unwilling to say “I’m sorry” it 9 times out of 10 means you are so absolutely certain that everything you have done was perfectly in the right that you feel apologizing is somehow insulting to you. Which usually means that person is at a point where any discussion that isn’t kissing up to their ego won’t go anywhere. It’s a sad reality but it does happen.

    All that said My sympathy may be biased by who I’ve seen more of. As a GM I’m well aware there are situations where there is no good call, only the least bad call. Was that the call Wayne made? I personally don’t think so but that’s due to a lack of knowledge of the full game.

    I can understand wanting to move out because a room mate won’t talk to you. That’s an uncomfortable situation to be dealing with. Unfortunately however Wayne loses a lot of sympathy on that point by forcing one of their friends into the middle. Dustin told Wayne he wouldn’t talk without an apology, he was at least willing to state his conditions in person and not involve one of their other friends. Wayne on the other hand chose to involve a third party rather then walk up to Dustin and say “either we talk or I’m moving out.”

    Posted May 18th, 2017 at 6:12 pm
  40. John Smith Says:

    @Anonamalous You and I apparently read different comics. Dustin is angry because horrifyingly bad calls by the GM compounded by a direct insult, not because of the plot he failed to stop.

    Posted May 18th, 2017 at 6:34 pm
  41. Antani Says:

    Everyone siding with Wayne is casually skimming over the INSULT added to the wrong Wayne did to Dustin.

    Side with a cheater, I would get pissed.
    Kill my character I would get mad.

    Call me a bad sport for pointing out the blatant cheating going on? Better come to me with the best apology you can muster, because you are dead to me until you do.

    @Anonamalous “So what, Dustin’s character takes precedence over their wants?” No, but the RULES DO.

    If you are going to ignore the rules in favor of narration that’s fine but you need to inform everyone involved, and be extra cautios there is NO COLLATERAL DAMAGE.

    Which Wayne didn’t and that’s his problem, he fucked up and he isn’t willing to accept the blame and apologize.

    Posted May 18th, 2017 at 7:01 pm
  42. ElderCat Says:

    I am throwing my voice in with all the others that point out Wayne is a toxic person and Dustin needs to let him go rather than give into his emotional terrorism. “I don’t need to apologize to YOU for my actions that made you upset, YOU should apologize to ME for getting so upset.”
    No. That’s BS. You are not automatically wrong because you get upset. This is no longer about the game. This is about Wayne not respecting Dustin as a person, with valid feelings.

    Posted May 18th, 2017 at 7:37 pm
  43. RedFlight Says:

    Dwayne made a bad call, and Dustin is the one reaping the consequence. Of course Dustin is mad, but running a game is though and sometime it take unexpected twist and turn, you have to try and let each player have their moment. Ultimately this dispute was over a darn game, and i would normally still side with Dwayne, Dusting was and still acting pretty childish and petty over this.

    However Dwayne should have been the one to initiate this talk, not hiding behind a surrogate like he did. On top of hit, having an ultimatum delivered like that is nothing short than cowardly.

    Their both too proud right now, to set aside differences let them move out of each of others hairs if they wish it that much. They will realize eventually their ruining a good friendship over triviality.

    Posted May 18th, 2017 at 9:02 pm
  44. To those who are saying that Wayne is willing to talk, if that is so, why hasn’t Wayne appeared in the past few strips?

    I agree with with those who have stated that Wayne’s giving an ultimatum through an intermediary is very wrong.

    I also think that the intermediary should have thought things over a little more before deciding to act as such. How did he imagine that his delivering the ultimatum would help?

    Posted May 18th, 2017 at 9:14 pm
  45. Gyran Says:

    Sorry to bring math into it but the “if X doesn’t do Y then Z will move out” is never an easy conversation to have and the few times it’s been pulled on me it’s been a situation where at least one of us was already quietly looking for another place. Sometimes the friendship survives, sometimes it doesn’t but, in my experience at least, when the conversations do happen they tend to devolve into shouting matches with wild accusations and the bringing up of things that happened long ago which have no bearing on the situation.

    So, on the bright side….maybe we’ll get some backstory between Dustin and Wayne. Um, yay?

    Posted May 18th, 2017 at 9:48 pm
  46. KayOs Says:

    You f*ck up. Refuse to apologize for said f*ck up. And then tell the person you f*cked over and THEN insulted that they need to apologize or you’re moving out.

    Yea….Wayne can take his sh*t personality and his BS ultimatum and go rot in a gutter. Deuces!!!

    Posted May 18th, 2017 at 9:59 pm
  47. Ever Professional Says:

    Well, as an experienced GM I kind of understand where Wayne is coming from; not that he’s right, but I understand. Wayne seems like a nice guy when he tries to GM, and that’s not a good quality to have when being a GM. Wayne was trying to let everyone have fun and get their way, but it went to Hell in a handbasket because of it. I don’t think anyone should blame Wayne for that part. When it came to telling Dustin that he was overreacting and a bad sport, I must admit I have also said some dumb things in the heat of the moment. Should he apologize for that, sure. However, Wayne might not know what Dustin wants an apology for; people see things in their own perspective, and for Wayne it was Dustin blowing up on him while Wayne was trying to resolve things in a way that made everyone happy.

    And on Wayne’s decision to move out, I don’t really see that as an ultimatum. I see that as Wayne saying that he doesn’t want to live with someone who hates him, and so he’s kind of done with the situation. I just wanna say, life’s kind of murky and people rarely know the right and wrong of a situation. Hopefully the two of them can resolve this tension and move on without regret, but I’d still suggest Wayne move out. That kind of fight’s gonna linger with the two of them living in the same house.

    Posted May 18th, 2017 at 11:41 pm
  48. Josh Says:

    Is there some knowledge of WoD rules you need to know to really appreciate Dustin’s point? Because from my point of view, being mostly ignorant of WoD, I felt, reading the original fight, that Wayne was making a reasonable compromise rule call between the parties arguing over them, and then the dice roll is what really screwed Dustin. Maybe it’s because I don’t know the underlying rules that well, though.

    Posted May 19th, 2017 at 3:12 am
  49. Michael Chandra Says:

    @Danthulhu: If a ‘friend’ believes no apology is needed for needlessly insulting you, then they were never a friend to begin with. And people sure are rather willing to ignore that aspect, the deliberate insult, so that they can paint Dustin in a bad light.

    Posted May 19th, 2017 at 3:28 am
  50. Michael Chandra Says:

    Seriously though, people, why is everyone pretending Wayne didn’t insult Dustin? Are you all really saying it’s okay to insult people without an apology?

    Posted May 19th, 2017 at 3:29 am
  51. Antani Says:

    No, Ever Professional it’s totally fair to blame Wayne for the fuck up as a ST. If you are in a “referee” position you have to be fair. He wasn’t. He put the cheater fun over a regular player fun. And that’s wrong, and the root of the trouble.

    He’s quite possibly not fit for being a ST.

    Posted May 19th, 2017 at 4:00 am
  52. KSClaw Says:

    You know who needs to apologize? Lucas. He’s the dink that ruined the experience for everyone, because he didn’t want to play by the rules.

    Posted May 19th, 2017 at 4:22 am
  53. Jenn Says:

    So, I keep seeing a lot of people stating that Wayne is toxic and hasn’t tried to talk or anything constructive. And while i am on the fence about his toxicity, he -has- tried to talk to Dustin. The last DnD mini arc showed Wayne trying to talk to Dustin as he was leaving to go to DnD and getting a pretty pointed SHUN, glare and total silence from him.

    Also, it seems like people keep forgetting that the characters have lives and such off camera as it were. We don’t know how Dustin initially demanded his Apology Then Talk, we don’t know how many times other than the one shown that Wayne has tried to talk to him. We don’t know these things because we haven’t been shown them. So in that regard, it’s a little unfair to pile all the blame on Wayne.

    Yes, Wayne needs to apologize for calling Dustin a bad sport. But I honestly don’t think he is choosing moving out over apologizing and having an honest conversation. Frankly, if I had a housemate who was giving me the silent treatment with a healthy helping of death glares and pointedly ignoring me whenever I tried to talk, shit, I’d want out too. Personally, I think they’re both feeling their pride a little too much. Yes, Dustin deserves an apology for being called a bad sport, but I’m wondering how much of his demand for an apology was, “You will apologize for killing Mathers” over, “Hey you were kind of a rude prick, you need to apologize for calling me a bad sport”. Because there is a world of difference between the two and we don’t know exactly what Dustin said to Wayne when he issued his ultimatum.

    Also, why do I keep seeing people demanding Russell tell Dustin that Wayne is running Changeling? He’s not. Wayne’s not even playing Changeling. This is very silly and slightly confusing.

    Posted May 19th, 2017 at 5:54 am
  54. Jade Gryphion Says:

    @Vol

    There is truth in the fact that some apology is needed, on both sides. I was never trying to point Wayne as a saint here. Having read down to what Ever Professional said yesterday evening, it pretty well sums up my beliefs on the topic.

    And I’m sorry, but a long-term friendship ending over a game? I am having a REAL problem with this one conflict being the Achilles Heel in something so long lasting, a single moment in time, a solitary mistake that brings down an institution that has been good for both.

    As to Wayne being willing to talk, – http://www.weregeek.com/2017/01/12/ – Wayne may be critiqued as short sighted here, or dense, but this indicates to me that he just wants things to go back to where they were before the game and that he has NO CLUE how badly this affected Dustin. I can honestly say that I have known people were angry or resented me for something, and if I had never sat down and hashed out with them to find out why, they would never have gotten the apology they needed, and I could not have corrected my actions to make sure it would not happen again.

    I may be a special case – I do not have the skill set that allows me to socialise in ways that most people consider normal – but I have had legitimately REAL friends that have been as angry with me as Dustin is with Wayne, and I haven’t known WHY or HOW I needed to apologize till after a very long talk, after which I have apologized and amended the offending behavior.

    Were I in the specific case of Wayne, I KNOW that I would perceive what occurred in that space to be an incredibly minor dust-up, unworthy of this level anger. I would not understand it to have been taken as a personal attack, as from my perspective, it was not. I would not understand how that one action could have become this thing about to rend a friendship that I have counted on for a long period of time. I know I don’t accept or respond well to unreasoned demands, but I would see from those demands for an apology that I hurt someone that I cared for, and I would seek to understand HOW, because it doesn’t fit, AT ALL, with my personal memory of the incident. I would see their continued anger to be something that would indicate that they no longer wish to be friends with me, and after repeated overtures to talk it over were refused, I would leave.

    I’m not taking Wayne’s side in this argument with Dustin. I am taking my own in how I KNOW from experience how I would see and handle this exact situation. I haven’t a clue as to whether my feelings or thoughts align with Wayne’s.

    Posted May 19th, 2017 at 10:45 am
  55. TheMjohann Says:

    Great. The “Take my ball and leave” strategy. Cos that never backfire.
    As i see it, nobody have stopped Wayne from talking. He know where to find Dustin. It is not that hard to go up to someone and just talk. Maybe the other part isnt going to listen but they cant stop you from talking. At least you try then before you walk out.

    Posted May 19th, 2017 at 11:45 am
  56. NosyWanderer Says:

    @ Josh I’m not an expert on WoD rules, but I can tell you how I read it. First off, theres the idea that none of this shpuld have worked at all, so hr’s still getting a major adventage by even being allowed that roll. Then, note the idea of the other guy tearing out his eyes was blamed on being crazy, not some ability to detect what was needed and the will to do so. This would require using a drawback trait – something he was given points for taking – being used as a bonus power to circumvent high level stuff. From a pure numbers game, that’s unfair. Then, as it isn’t something his character knew and controlled, it would mean it happened, by chance, that what the player knew was needed would occur. That’s metagaming. Then, consider again the insanity. For that to be the reason, the following series of steps is 100% required: He happened to have an ‘attack’, so to speak, at this exact moment. He can’t guarantee or control that, so that should have been a roll. And he happened to manifest a new type of mental problem, requiring another roll. And it was exactly the one he needed; he didn’t start eating Chang e or something. Roll. And he went for the eyes, exactly what he needed, rather than, sau, biting off his fingers, which he again can’t control if it’s madness, thus it needs another roll. And once that was taken care of, he regained his sanity enough to act as needed rather than moving on to his tongue or something. Again, roll. And the pain of tearing oug his eyes wasn’t a problem once he regained his sanity. One last possibly needed roll. While I can understand not going through all of these steps in the moment…there’s a valid reason to think they’re needed, which makes it unfair that he was able to hand wave ALL of it to claim it just WORKED and now he just needs to roll for fighting blind, which he was apparently ready for. Apologies if I’m way off base, that’s just how it seemed to me.

    Posted May 19th, 2017 at 5:07 pm
  57. Echse Says:

    @ Josh: Yes, Lucas wasnt abiding by the rules. First he used his characterflaw as a, well, positive thing to be not affected by the very, very, heck damn very costy majestic (Vampire skill) aura of dustins character. But the Aura is not just for one sense, but for all. Then he let the dice decide for things like the attack on mathers, which by the rules should not be allowed.
    But not only that, one of the other commenters stated, that the event was planned by lucas, joel and wayne. But they did leave the door open, so other characters might join in (joel even stated that in one of the comics). So waynes overstressed reaction could be bypassed by simply saying: that scene is for these characters only.

    To put it simply: The scene was made for joel and lucas.
    But they left the scene open for others to join (as far as I can tell, you can also close scenes off for other characters in larp), but wayne as the gm did not really expect that.
    SO when dustin joined and everything went awry, he tried to be everyones best friend and tried to compromise so hard, that he helped the rulebreaker lukas under the premisses to be fair. that´s the way dustins character was accidently killed off.
    Instead of admitting that he was overstressed, he simply put dustins rightful anger down in a really… badly phrased manner.

    The death of his character and this behaviour of his friend are the cause of dustins anger.

    Even though I think Dustins reactions are childish, I can totally understand where they stem from.
    As of Waynes point of view, I can understand that he behaved that way. But he seems caring and empathic enough to understand that he did maybe not behave in the most… intelligent way. He knows Dustin long enough to know that he can behave rather childish. And If he doesnt understand the reason for dustins anger then I would give him the apology to get to a talk, to learn why he´s angry (and maybe give a real deeply felt apology after the talk)

    so for both sides I would think it is a question wether friendship or pride. I am a little bit more on dustins side here, because, well… anger or pride, pride is a more cold emotion. one that can be overcome with logic more easily than anger.

    Posted May 19th, 2017 at 6:02 pm
  58. Vol Says:

    @Jade Gryphion
    I can see your point were someone with that level of social skills in this situation, I have a friend that’s in a pretty similar boat in that she’s sometimes needs an outside perspective to fully grasp some social interactions but then has no trouble understanding what happened. But we’ve already seen that Wayne has perfectly normal, for this group, social skills. He’s been running a LARP for years, with all the player wrangling involved, and has so far been sociable and moderately charming, so there’s no reason to believe he’s mysteriously oblivious to why Dustin is upset with him. And even if he were he should do exactly what you stated, and try to sit Dustin down to discuss the situation. All we’ve seen so far is him try to operate business as usual as if he did nothing wrong.

    @Josh
    It was discussed a bit more at the time, and I’m by no means a WoD expert, but from a role-play perspective you can’t just randomly decide that your character would tear out their eyes. Wayne even states that he’s going to allow it “just this once”, indicating that he knows it’s BS but it keeps his train on the tracks so he’ll go with it. And the power in question while vaguely worded in what I can find, only requires the target see you when it’s activated. Nothing says they have to keep seeing you and the power lasts until the end of the scene. So Wayne not only knowingly let a player metagame a situation, using his out of game knowledge of how the power “worked” to advantage, but that metagaming still shouldn’t have worked.

    Given that Wayne read the book in the scene he should have known how the power worked, so no real excuse there, but I suppose there’s always a chance they’re using modified rules, or he made a snap decision that the target is only affected by Majesty as long as the wielder is in direct LOS, even though that would make it almost completely useless, blinking would break the power. And that’s not even touching on calling someone a bad sport and a telling them they’re overreacting because you’re screwing them over.

    Posted May 19th, 2017 at 11:43 pm
  59. Antani Says:

    @Josh, no Wayne ruling was really bad, basically the count was blatantly metagaming, borderline cheating and Wayne should have never allowed that.

    Basically all NosyWanderer and Echse have said PLUS the simple overlooked fact that Dustin’s power is MAJESTY not DOMINATION, therefore there is no need for visual contact, just being aware of Mathers presence is enough, there is no way Lucas could have stabbed him without being aware, it’s just wrong.

    @Jade Gryphon I can understand your point, still if someone demands an apology from you before talking to you I say you apologize and then try to work out what went wrong. At least that’s what I would do.

    Then, if you play RPGs or LARPs it’s pretty easy to understand why Dustin is pissed off, there is no way an experienced ST doesn’t know how he fucked up when he takes a moment to think about that ruling.

    Going to Dustin and say “look, I apologize for calling you a bad sport, we need to talk” isn’t going to kill him. That’s all Dustin wants to resume communications.

    Posted May 21st, 2017 at 4:59 am
  60. Daniela Says:

    Intersting. Would you really open a conversation by sayin: “Sorry for everything, I am wrong. Now lets talk.”? A friend is always worth a conversation.
    And making mistakes: Doesn’t everyone make them? Didn’t he have good reasons for himself? And there was the pressure of time.
    Durstin wants a “Sorry for everything!”. But all I see is a misjudgement under pressure that turned out badly.
    And also: Can you imagine, how it is to live with somebody who doesn’t TALK with you?!? Every second implying how bad and wrong you are?

    Friends TALK things over. And to demand: “say sorry and then we’ll talk” is the wrong way round.

    Let’s see, how it works out.

    Posted May 21st, 2017 at 5:00 pm
  61. Antani Says:

    Yes I would, I definitely would if I value the friendship.

    And while yes everyone make mistakes, that doesn’t mean we shouldn’t apologize for them, more so considering that after making a couple mistake Wayne insulted Dustin for calling him out on his mistakes.

    Posted May 23rd, 2017 at 3:38 am
  62. Echse Says: “And If he doesnt understand the reason for dustins anger then I would give him the apology to get to a talk, to learn why he´s angry (and maybe give a real deeply felt apology after the talk)”

    Dustin explicitly stated it here: http://www.weregeek.com/2016/11/28/

    Posted May 24th, 2017 at 12:38 am
  63. Michael Chandra Says:

    “I’m sorry I insulted you in the heat of the moment. I shouldn’t have done that.” See how easy it is to begin with an apology? Let’s not pretend that behaviour shouldn’t have been apologised for already.

    If Wayne can’t do that, he was never a friend. So please stop acting as if Dustin deserves no apology.

    Posted May 24th, 2017 at 1:44 am
  64. @Gene
    Thanks for bringing that up again.

    “There’s no need to be a bad sport about it”
    “You are over-reacting AND interrupting the Scene”.

    Then we have this Scene were Dustin explains that he already told Wayne what he wants an apology for.

    http://www.weregeek.com/2017/01/12/

    “He refuses to apologize for his stupid rules OR for calling me a bad Sport””

    And then we have, of course, him rather moving out than apologizing. And not even having to gots to tell this Dustin himself, no. He’s sending someone else.

    I don’t know if Wayne is just unable to understand other human beings or if he doesn’t care.

    But considering he knows that he fucked up, i’ll go with a too big an ego.
    How do i know, that he knows?
    simply.

    http://www.weregeek.com/2016/12/05/

    So if he still refused to apologize and would rather move out? Good riddance. Maybe he’ll at least learn from the experience and make the Counts life a living hell by reminding him all the time, that he is insane on a “gouching my eyes out”-Level.

    Posted May 24th, 2017 at 5:08 am
  65. ShuxTehUber Says:

    If Wayne can’t apologize for allowing Dustin’s character to die to a cheater, calling Dustin a bad sport in response to Dustin’s fury at Wayne’s bad call, creating a hostile environment in Dustin’s home by causing Dustin to not speak, causing Dustin to leave the LARP he enjoyed so much, reimburse Dustin for all the money he’d spent on the LARP and pay his part of the rent.
    Wayne can go die on the streets. See if anyone cares.

    Or maybe Dustin could actually have that chat and remind Wayne exactly what it was that caused this whole thing, making an apology from him more genuine… Nah, go away Wayne, you made a mistake and that should never, ever be forgiven.

    Posted May 24th, 2017 at 9:51 pm
  66. Antani Says:

    @Shux you say “Nah, go away Wayne, you made a mistake and that should never, ever be forgiven.”

    But it’s a strawman noone ever made or is defending that point.

    Sure Wayne CAN be forgiven, but forgiveness must be earned.

    Posted May 26th, 2017 at 1:50 am
  67. NosyWanderer Says:

    @Daniela The problem I have with that kind of response is that it seems to be overstating the point in order to dismiss any more reasonable ways of going about it. “Look. I can see this really got to you. It wasn’t my intention to hurt you, and I’m sorry if I did. So, c’mon, let’s talk about this, okay?” Whether he’s right or wrong for wanting an apology first, the idea that you can’t possibly acknowledge those feeling other than robotically admitting across-the-board guilt about everything seems a tad off. (For that matter, so does the idea that he isnt allowed to ever be mad that he feels he was treated poorly because people make mistakes, how dare he have feelings. Im exaggerating, I know. My honest stance is that I understand why DIustin is mad, think it would be better if they just talk it out and put it past them, and hope things work out. I can even understand Wayne’s side, really. I just hatw the idea of overstating how wrong Dustin must be fto make that point. But whatever, my main point is the first part.)

    Posted May 28th, 2017 at 7:01 pm
  68. Reason Says:

    @BecyBoo how is butchering the game rule to turn a weakness into shield from a high lev power fair to anyone and one that was meta gamed as a way around the power and had nothing to do with roleplay.

    A far more likely possibility is that he did not want to be seeing as just siding with his roommate since people do question stuff like that. So like a coward worried of his image he chose that other people did not matter and did what was best for him. Make unfair ruling so he would look fair to his critics.

    Posted May 30th, 2017 at 12:57 am